The Great Big Bad Durham Thread

[laxingtonIII]

It's not even worth guessing Men's championship. Until BUCS change the rules so that you can't have a team made up of D1/D3 school Americans who are there just for lacrosse and not for academic reasons then Durham will win. It seems pointless any team playing them...any team that can win the Northern premier with a goal difference of +158 should not be in a UK uni competition.

[Tree13]

It's not even worth guessing Men's championship. Until BUCS change the rules so that you can't have a team made up of D1/D3 school Americans who are there just for lacrosse and not for academic reasons then Durham will win. It seems pointless any team playing them...any team that can win the Northern premier with a goal difference of +158 should not be in a UK uni competition.

Not sure I'd phrase it quite like that (predicting a raft of indignant replies stating that the players concerned are all at Durham for academics first....), but I agree with the sentiment. As it stands at the moment, BUCS may as well just give Durham the trophy and the points for hallowe'en and tell them to get on with their studies while everyone else actually plays competitive games.

[ScottStorey]

It's not even worth guessing Men's championship. Until BUCS change the rules so that you can't have a team made up of D1/D3 school Americans who are there just for lacrosse and not for academic reasons then Durham will win. It seems pointless any team playing them...any team that can win the Northern premier with a goal difference of +158 should not be in a UK uni competition.

Not sure I'd phrase it quite like that (predicting a raft of indignant replies stating that the players concerned are all at Durham for academics first....), but I agree with the sentiment. As it stands at the moment, BUCS may as well just give Durham the trophy and the points for hallowe'en and tell them to get on with their studies while everyone else actually plays competitive games.

I don't think Durham have a leg to stand on saying they are there for academics first. I heard earlier that if those from america don't play every game, unless they have a valid medical certificate, they lose their scholarship. Don't know how much truth there is in that mind.


Maybe for championship predictions we should go with who will come 2nd ?

[Tommy88]

It's not even worth guessing Men's championship. Until BUCS change the rules so that you can't have a team made up of D1/D3 school Americans who are there just for lacrosse and not for academic reasons then Durham will win. It seems pointless any team playing them...any team that can win the Northern premier with a goal difference of +158 should not be in a UK uni competition.

Not sure I'd phrase it quite like that (predicting a raft of indignant replies stating that the players concerned are all at Durham for academics first....), but I agree with the sentiment. As it stands at the moment, BUCS may as well just give Durham the trophy and the points for hallowe'en and tell them to get on with their studies while everyone else actually plays competitive games.

I don't think Durham have a leg to stand on saying they are there for academics first. I heard earlier that if those from america don't play every game, unless they have a valid medical certificate, they lose their scholarship. Don't know how much truth there is in that mind.


Maybe for championship predictions we should go with who will come 2nd ?

I agree with all above, especially with the bit about people being prompted to post some angry retorts in their defence lol. However I don't think that anyone should not bother playing them I can imagine it would be disappointing for anyone in the northern prem to get them any time before the final as they have played them twice already, but we (Exeter) would love to get far enough to play them. Yes it would be a forgone conclusion but still, I will never be able to play against a team boasting the likes of Jeremy Sieverts an MLL player. But I agree, anyone who makes it to the Final, I think it could be pretty open...anyone care to predict the first few results??

[Tree13]

Whos to say someone cant beat durham! anyone could turn up on the day and have the games of their lives, if everyone goes into durham games so negative thinking weve lost already u wont win!

Do you ACTUALLY believe that, or are you just saying it?

http://www.bucs.org.uk/fl/tv.asp?teamid=31407 - Durham's results for this season to date. How did positive thinking assist YOUR team in your games against Team America? They've conceded seven goals in seven Northern Prem games. No disrespect to the Southern Prem teams, but there is nothing down south that even comes close to the Nottingham side that came to Brighton last year and absolutely annihilated us, and Durham have been beating teams of similar stature to Nottingham by margins of 20+... any team "turning up on the day" would need to have substantially more than just the game of their lives to beat Durham. Off the top of my head, they'd need maybe a dozen NCAA-experienced players.

Hopefully this NCAA recruitment drive will MASSIVELY dissuade any promising young UK players from playing for Durham, thereby making other teams stronger. If not.... well, welcome to the arms race.

[Chowder]

Well said, Tree, in my opinion...

[webby]

Whos to say someone cant beat durham! anyone could turn up on the day and have the games of their lives, if everyone goes into durham games so negative thinking weve lost already u wont win!

Do you ACTUALLY believe that, or are you just saying it?

http://www.bucs.org.uk/fl/tv.asp?teamid=31407 - Durham's results for this season to date. How did positive thinking assist YOUR team in your games against Team America?

The Durham vs Hallam game I watched at Durham (20-0) involved a VERY understrength Hallam team. No idea what they were like when they played in Sheffield though. That said, I can't see Durham losing to anyone this year unless they get overly cocky.

The Durham lads are immensely talented, no doubt about that, but they also put the work in - they must be the only team in the UK that trains 6 days per week, as well as team gym/lifting/fitness sessions. They haven't only brought NCAA players over, they have brought the NCAA approach to training and playing. If that style of dedication and hard work continues when they reduce the number of NCAA recruits, then I can see Durham being strong in the future.

But alas I digress. Did you know there's a lax goal in Knocked Up?

[Chowder]

Ok, the problem with the argument that Durham have brought their work ethic over with them, or at least my problem with it, is that it itself is a luxury that no other university can legitimately afford. Playing for a team that is considered in the highest tier of club sports at a large university that is itself very high in the overall BUCS ratings, with an endowment in the tens of millions and a generous AU that has no problems funding sports, it would be logistically impossible for us to train anywhere near 6 times a week. The cost and availability of facilities is still incredibly restrictive, we not even being given priority to use our rubber crumb training pitch when we do train, so, without being condescending, i can't imagine how the suggestion is received at small unis with difficult AUs.
This argument also seems to suggest that players from all the other teams in BUCS wouldn't absolutely jump at the chance to train far more than they currently do, which in my experience is not the case at all. Everyone, from what i can see, has a great attitude towards growing the game and improving as players and programs, yet, added to the monetary concerns that restrict training are other logistical concerns, such as workload. Several of our first team players, including our current president, are 3rd year medics, and are therefore already showing impressive commitment to train and play games as it is. I'm sure this situation is echoed at universities across the country. It is stated on the Durham website that players belonging to the lacrosse team are eligible to receive 'academic concessions' when needed; how do you think most universities would react were that request made at their next captain's meeting?
Admittedly having no idea myself at the moment, I would also be interested to find out whether the entire durham squad trains 6 days a week, or if it's just the first team?
Essentially, this disparity between the POSSIBLE approaches, apart from anything else, of Durham and then of other universities, means that you can argue over whether it is right or not, but you can surely not possibly say that it is fair, or sporting. We know exactly where our limit is in the Championship, and it's not the final, because we are scheduled to play Durham in a previous round, should we get that far. The fact that it is that clear to most, particularly having played them already, surely raises some important questions? Previous suggestions to give Durham the trophy and let everyone else fight it out without them until the end don't seem quite so far-fetched as they may in other circumstances.

[Daveyoc]

Stockport are currently undefeated in Prem 1, is that fair?

Durham University is an exceptional team, IMO they would be undefeated if they played in Prem 1

Maybe an Exhibition game between these two teams would be an interesting watch

[buckers_the_great]

In 2003 a wee lad from Russia brought a football club and spent much money on them, they went on to do well for a couple of years but the 'Arms Race' continued and this dominance didn't last for ever. The investment on a yearly basis changed and other teams found a few pounds to spend and grew their own talents.

Yes Durham might be King at the moment but that is no reason not to go out and enjoy playing Lacrosse and develop your team waiting for your moment to step into the spot light!

[Tree13]

All these posts about
blah, blah, blah, it's not fair
blah, blah, blah, they've got more money
blah, blah, blah, they train more
blah, blah, blah, they've got better facilities

Since when is any competition fair?

It gets to the core of why do you play sport?
- is it to win trophies?
- is it to master a set of skills?
- is it to be part of a Team?
- is it to have the challenge of competition?
- is it a combination of above?

Stockport are currently undefeated in Prem 1, is that fair?

Durham University is an exceptional team, IMO they would be undefeated if they played in Prem 1

They deserve to win BUCS Championship, and bookies would not be taking bets on them even in Vegas.

Should you concede to Durham because they are so good?

Hell no...

How many chances are you going to have to compete against the very best players and the best team in the Country?

The key word here is "compete". The BUCS north prem results to date would suggest that no other uni team in the country can compete, even remotely, with Durham. The reasoning is that Durham have financed an ENTIRE FIRST TEAM of NCAA lacrosse players, which you yourself point out would probably go undefeated in NEMLA, and there are suggestions that these players recieve "academic concessions" in order to allow them to train six times a week, despite apparently being genuine scholars who attend Durham to "put their academics first". Last time I checked Uni sports were supposed to be amateur and Durham, by granting concessions or inducements, academic or financial, to the gross extent are alleged to have done, are ignoring the spirit if not the rules of BUCS competition.

Re your Stockport remarks... http://nemla.leaguerepublic.com/Display ... ID=4856698 - Stockport have been pushed to the wire in both games with Cheadle, and their next game against Heaton Mersey looks like it could be a cracker. In twelve games Stockport have scored 166 and conceded 64, and are only a couple of points ahead of both Cheadle and Heaton. Compare this to Durham's league situation: Stockport are in a competition, Durham are emphatically not. How many YEARS would it take their opponents COMBINED to put 64 goals past Durham? Vegas would probably take a f*cking bet on that.

Yes they will win the BUCS championship, and yes they have the best players. But no Durham do not DESERVE the championship, because if you say they do, you're saying that whichever Uni chooses to import the most Americans deserves to win and that's indefensible.

I wonder exactly how satisfying Sieverts et al have actually found this season's "competition" to be, and I find it ironic that a poster who calls himself "UKLaxfan" advocates the wholesale importing of entire squads of Americans to the detriment of growth within the domestic game.

[Tree13]

In 2003 a wee lad from Russia brought a football club and spent much money on them, they went on to do well for a couple of years but the 'Arms Race' continued and this dominance didn't last for ever. The investment on a yearly basis changed and other teams found a few pounds to spend and grew their own talents.

Yes Durham might be King at the moment but that is no reason not to go out and enjoy playing Lacrosse and develop your team waiting for your moment to step into the spot light!

Ahem. Did the same team not win the league last year? Did they not just break the British transfer record? The state of play in your comparison is currently that there are really only two or three teams in the race every year and here's the important point - it's always the same two/three. The other teams in that division would need to muster a MASSIVE amount of investment to compete - look at the amount of money Liverpool and Spurs have spent, even Aston Villa, in that time frame and what have they got to show for it? Nothing, because despite their irresponsible spending (specifically Liverpool) they still haven't got the buying power of the big guns. I don't think the Glazers, or Gilette and Hicks, are about to throw a few million at a BUCS lacrosse team, do you?

And as for your analogy of the spotlight - I think playing Durham at the moment would be more like stepping in front of the firing squad. You can growl and thump your chest as much as you like in that scenario, but it won't alter the outcome.

[Steely Dan]

Do we want a shift towards the Durham style of support from Universities?
Do we want Lax to be viewed as a serious sport?
As a player do we want to be able to train 6 days a week, with the right equipment/training methods?

If the answer to the above is yes then we have to accept that Durham need to thrive and other uni's need to be watching. It need to be seen to be a model that can promote and maintain excellence and win BUCS points.

As unfortunate as it seems there will be collateral damage along the way.

When BUCS was bing formed I lobbied my uni hard to support the motions, despite the fact that I would be long gone before BUCS lax came into force.

Outside of BUCS do you concede to a team you know to be dominant, a team you know will put 30 goals past you and keep a clean sheet?

Think seriously about these questions, as has been said before - we are a small village, and we need to support our sport across the board if we want it to excel and be taken seriously, we also have to accept that for many of us this may mean that the upper echelons of our sport move further away from our own individual reaches.

From my personal point of view, no longer being of teh calibre to compete near the top is a price I would pay to be able to watch UK lax on TV in 20 years time - such is the price of development

[sheffyank]

Do we want a shift towards the Durham style of support from Universities?
Do we want Lax to be viewed as a serious sport?
As a player do we want to be able to train 6 days a week, with the right equipment/training methods?

If the answer to the above is yes then we have to accept that Durham need to thrive and other uni's need to be watching. It need to be seen to be a model that can promote and maintain excellence and win BUCS points.

From my personal point of view, no longer being of teh calibre to compete near the top is a price I would pay to be able to watch UK lax on TV in 20 years time - such is the price of development

You are taking a very optimistic view about the future of Lacrosse. Going to AU's to convince them to give us new goals, an extra session for training, a new set of kit is hard enough. With sport budgets cut, a recession, and Lacrosse being a minority sport it is incredibly difficult to get funding from Universities and outside to cover the costs of what we already have. But asking for more is practically impossible. The more that AU directors become aware that investment will not return anything because Durham will win, we will get even less. Its essentially all or nothing, they either invest thousands and import Americans so that we can have a chance at getting some points for them, or they see it as a waste. This is NOT how we should develop lacrosse. Lacrosse can only develop naturally, one goal at a time, one training session at a time. NCAA training methods may be great, but are just not feasible in the UK because of UK sport budgets and space. It will never, ever take place. Our country's top sports dont have this. Rugby, football etc. do not train 6 days a week, so why will Lacrosse be given that chance?

The point is, that buying in a bunch of Americans kills the spirit of competition, and may change the Durham programme, but it will not have a wider impact on UK lacrosse that time wouldnt have had anyway. In the mean time, the only people taking advanmtage of UK funds and this investment are a bunch of NCAA players who will return to their home countries with some medals that mean next to nothing to them. After they go and investment is decreased, are we convinced that a lasting legacy will be left by these Americans? Im not.

[chippie]

general question...

are people annoyed/dislike the fact that durham.....
have so many 'imports' or the fact they can put so much money into lacrosse??

its not just their lacrosse programme....they have also done similar in basketball (won the north prem, they only got promoted this year)
rugby (top of north prem A)
mens hockey (won the north prem, finished 5th/6th last season)
womens hockey (2nd in north prem)

the difference between the basketball/lacrosse and hockey/rugby is that they are bringing in players from countries where those sports are generally big...so they have a lot of scholarships for uk players in hockey and rugby and players from the states in lax an bball....

so in theory they are bringing in players to boost their programmes.....its almost an american system of a student athlete...is it working for them....yes! will it keep working? who knows....however i do know in some sports they are losing players as they can only cater for a certain number of 'stars'

so back to my original question, what part of durhams programme do you dislike?

if bham could do it then they would...in fact we offer a fair few scholarships in our top programme, hockey (prob half as much as durham) and we still produce better results than them year after year!

the way i see it going soon, will either be some unis specialising in certain sports (some do anyway at mo) and some unis who can afford it trying to do all!!

[Steely Dan]

You are taking a very optimistic view about the future of Lacrosse. Going to AU's to convince them to give us new goals, an extra session for training, a new set of kit is hard enough.

Our country's top sports dont have this. Rugby, football etc. do not train 6 days a week, so why will Lacrosse be given that chance?

I appreciate it is a very optimistic view. I also appreciate that in many regards it is a naive one, however the reality is neither as optimistic as indicated nor as pessimistic as many view in this forum.

I know that there has been a sea change in training for top sports at my old uni, Rugby, football and American Football do now have the opportunity to train 5 days a week, albeit 2 of these are gym sessions and a third is on pitch fitness rather than skill training.

The results have come back such that the university is getting improved bucs points for these sports (they are by no means at the top of the tables) but small improvements have resulted in rapid changes.

Lacrosse as a mens game is fighting, not against football and rugby, but against fencing and badminton, Aikido and Ultimate frisbee. In this regard a sense of professionalism, within the domain of an amateur sport must be achieved if Universities are to fund the sport above our percieved competitors.

Ultimately those in control of funding don't generally give a damn about the sport itself but rather the ramifications of success, and its translation into follow on funding (remember bucs point secures future sports funding) this doesn't have to be achieving the top spot.

Showing improvement against a stronger opponent, through increased training and dedication generally results in greater long term support.

Returning to my openning remark - yes, its an optimistic view, I'd rather play to the whistle and against the competition in its current guise, than criticise the potential long term effects of a structure that, so far, has only be viewed in the short term.

[Dining Room]

Intrigued - I would love to see the Durham guys play.

[AHop]

How many chances are you going to have to compete against the very best players and the best team in the Country?

Well I only realistically have one opportunity to get a degree, getting spanked 30-0 is about as much fun as additional reading and much less productive. I couldn't care less about them being the best team in the country, at the end of the day for most people BUCs is a large commitment to make when your getting a degree. I've done my lacrosse commitments at university in my first year with Wales lacrosse and it was incredibly hard playing BUCs, NEMLA and travelling from Nottingham to Cardiff twice a month at least, but it was one of the greatest things I've ever been a part of, but i was happy to take the financial hits and give up the time because It was immensly rewarding and something I would recommend to anyone. But travelling around the country at the sake of my qualifications when the only outcome is a spanking and second place? In 7 days Nottingham University have to play Manchester, St Andrews and Bristol. All away. 1100 miles and as a reward if we beat Bristol we get to play Durham in the second round. Away!

Next, everyone bigs up there commitment as a thing we should admire but people fail to recognize that other teams up and down the country, with far less backing put in exactly the same levels of commitment, training, coaching and playing on rubbish pitches with graveyard hour training slots, wrestling with restrictive AU's all with a view to take 2nd place? Thats crazy! How is that good for the sport? Why are these teams going unrewarded? In a small sport like ours we really shouldn't be pushing this kind of commitment to the side just to applaud winning. University teams up and down the country are doing amazing things with lacrosse and week in week out we fight and moan about Durham on these forums all the bloody time and never mention for example Loughborough's professional training program, or an extremely competitive southern prem being won by Warwick or any one of the many success stories in BUCs lacrosse. We need to be bigging up the little guys who are working there socks off for the sport we love and getting them rewarded.

I also don't like the fact that to compete with Durham everyone else will have to import yanks over. Not enough NEMLA/SEMLA juniors in circulation + training freshers =/= NCAA SOOPER DOOPER PLAYERS!! no matter how hard lacrosse institutions work. I love lacrosse and I think BUCs lax could be a great catalyst for the sport but if everyone goes the way of Durham it will only hurt lacrosse's development in this country. BUCs can simultaneously drive the development of junior and senior lacrosse in this country if there is a constant intake and outake of players, but if every roster is stacked with americans then this isn't going to happen.

BUCs lacrosse and lacrosse in general is still in its infancy in terms of professionalism and structure in this country so we need to do everything possible to ensure its successful but sustainable. I don't want to take anything away from the players on Durhams team and the lacrosse they play, they are all top guys and gave our team lots of support despite never really getting a game in there 30-0 win, as someone who enjoys good lacrosse some of the players are a joy to play against. I just wish they could do it in NEMLA not BUCs where this level of competition would benefit a stagnant north prem immensly.

[LPierce]

Much as I may agree that there is no competition over who will win and it's a great shame that short of a miracle that won't change, I personally feel that playing harder teams tends to bring out the best in you.
Okay so this season Edinburgh were top in the Scottish division but last year with St Andrews we played our best game despite thinking we'd probably be thrashed. The score doesn't necessarily reflect the way the team played and much as we all dislike losing you can still do it with dignity and knowing you gave it your best shot. There's nothing wrong losing to a team who are quite simply better... And yeah if we every had to play Durham their players would be racing to see who scored 50 first but I would never avoid playing them.
Look at it this way.. You get better by playing better teams, so having the opportunity to play them, disregard the score for the moment, would only help you develop your skills. As a goalkeeper it's great playing stronger teams because you find yourself facing alot more shots and you improve alot quicker as you have to adapt.
I'm quite glad there's a team like Durham to be honest, hopefully it'll push a few other unis into developing their own lax teams. Hint hint Aberdeen SU..

[J-Lo]

Good on them. They spotted an opportunity to dominate and have taken it.

While other clubs might not have the money or the skill level of the durham team, there is nothing stopping you from getting up at 6am every morning and training over a the local park