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Re: Possible league restructure proposals

Postby davidmcculloch81 Wed Dec 12, 2012 2:38 pm

Moaning Git wrote:18. At the end of the current season there would be play-off games to determine promotion/relegation between the Premier divisions to apply at the start of the 2013/2014 season and to achieve a total of 8 teams in each division if possible (see paragraph 5 above), (currently 10 in Premier 1, 8 in Premier 2 and 7 in Premier 3). The top 2 teams of division 2 would play-off against teams 7 and 8 of division 1 (1 vs. 8, and 2 vs. 7). The top 2 teams of division 3 would play-off against teams 5 and 6 of division 2 (1 vs. 6, and 2 vs. 5).


So we're now playing for 6th in Prem 1 to guarantee survival rather than 8th? How can this be changed halfway through the season? If we'd have known that in September we wouldn't have lost to Mellor and Poynton.

I, for one, am outraged and I am going to tell everybody on the internet about it.
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Re: Possible league restructure proposals

Postby the pom Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:06 pm

But dave you get to play another round in the flags to compensate
League restructure I told you so 10/3/2011(looking good on this one)
Prem division to two leagues will result in the prem division failing and being combined with Nemla 22/3/2012
the proposed restructure to 8 teams in each prem league will only last a couple of years until it has to be restructured again due to teams dropping out. 13/12/2012
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Re: Possible league restructure proposals

Postby falseteeth0 Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:12 pm

UKLacrosse wrote:
mmm...beer wrote:John (Moaning), has already identified a growing discontent within the top A-Teams in NEMLA 1, about the limitations on competitive games following the original restructuring. Sometimes I wonder why these opinions don't get through to the 'people making the decisions'??


The gulf between the top 3 teams and the bottom 3/4 teams in North 1 is massive, those games are really men against boys. Stockport A, Cheadle A & Heaton Mersey A were all very competitive in the old Division 2 and would push the likes of Rochdale, Boardman, Brooklands etc whomever was in D2 close and win games.

We all aspire to play the highest standard possible but I am pretty sure Rochdale A & ourselves (Boardman A) wouldnt shed a tear if we are in North 2 at the start of next season.

Prem 1, North 2 & North 3 seem to be ok, but there seem to be issues with the rest. What the answer is I dont know!
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Re: Possible league restructure proposals

Postby UKLacrosse Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:00 pm

falseteeth0 wrote:
UKLacrosse wrote:
mmm...beer wrote:John (Moaning), has already identified a growing discontent within the top A-Teams in NEMLA 1, about the limitations on competitive games following the original restructuring. Sometimes I wonder why these opinions don't get through to the 'people making the decisions'??


The gulf between the top 3 teams and the bottom 3/4 teams in North 1 is massive, those games are really men against boys. Stockport A, Cheadle A & Heaton Mersey A were all very competitive in the old Division 2 and would push the likes of Rochdale, Boardman, Brooklands etc whomever was in D2 close and win games.

We all aspire to play the highest standard possible but I am pretty sure Rochdale A & ourselves (Boardman A) wouldnt shed a tear if we are in North 2 at the start of next season.

Prem 1, North 2 & North 3 seem to be ok, but there seem to be issues with the rest. What the answer is I dont know!


Without wishing to steal Pom's thunder ... I tried to point this out the first season, when it was obvious from the 'goal difference' column, where those three teams were the only ones showing a +ve ... and a rather large +ve!! Various comments were also made about the probable futility of expecting migration of players to other 1st Teams. All very predictable outcomes I would have thought.
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Re: Possible league restructure proposals

Postby dalglish Thu Dec 13, 2012 1:36 am

[
So we're now playing for 6th in Prem 1 to guarantee survival rather than 8th? How can this be changed halfway through the season? If we'd have known that in September we wouldn't have lost to Mellor and Poynton.
Interesting comments all round but Dave I don't understand your comment that had you known about the proposed changes you would have beaten Mellor and Poynton, does this mean these games were thrown away and lost on purpose ? Just interested to know what you meant.
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Re: Possible league restructure proposals

Postby falseteeth0 Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:11 am

dalglish wrote:[
So we're now playing for 6th in Prem 1 to guarantee survival rather than 8th? How can this be changed halfway through the season? If we'd have known that in September we wouldn't have lost to Mellor and Poynton.
Interesting comments all round but Dave I don't understand your comment that had you known about the proposed changes you would have beaten Mellor and Poynton, does this mean these games were thrown away and lost on purpose ? Just interested to know what you meant.




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Re: Possible league restructure proposals

Postby Dining Room Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:18 am

Has anything been mentioned about the NEMLA Divisions? The disparities in NEMLA 1 is a mirror of Prem 2.
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Re: Possible league restructure proposals

Postby the pom Thu Dec 13, 2012 12:05 pm

Rochdale have the interesting position being in perm 2 and nemla one there second team is often playing a much stronger team than their firsts.

for example one week the nemla 1 team could be playing Stockport A and their first could be playing ashton

how would you select your teams for that one

next year you could see more of this if the league structure is changed as roachdal Boardman poyton brooklands timperley ect could all or a mix off be in this situation leading to the dreaded loading of teams

it would make a mockery of prem 2 and nemla 1 you could see whole teams switch week on week.


its just not right is it
League restructure I told you so 10/3/2011(looking good on this one)
Prem division to two leagues will result in the prem division failing and being combined with Nemla 22/3/2012
the proposed restructure to 8 teams in each prem league will only last a couple of years until it has to be restructured again due to teams dropping out. 13/12/2012
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Re: Possible league restructure proposals

Postby young_trig Thu Dec 13, 2012 12:15 pm

the pom wrote:Rochdale have the interesting position being in perm 2 and nemla one there second team is often playing a much stronger team than their firsts.

for example one week the nemla 1 team could be playing Stockport A and their first could be playing ashton

how would you select your teams for that one

next year you could see more of this if the league structure is changed as roachdal Boardman poyton brooklands timperley ect could all or a mix off be in this situation leading to the dreaded loading of teams

it would make a mockery of prem 2 and nemla 1 you could see whole teams switch week on week.


its just not right is it


I agree that the made up situation you have just stated would be rubbish. However, you should ask Rochdale, Steelers, and Brooklands what they have done this year. They have played their 1st team players on the 1st team every week because that is how you get your team back in Prem 1.

Clubs will not do what you stated above, so its pointless using it as an arguement against the proposal. Its just not right is it :wink:
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Re: Possible league restructure proposals

Postby the pom Thu Dec 13, 2012 12:35 pm

sorry trig you cannot have it both ways

multi team clubs were supposedly loading lower teams stopping weaker teams progressing and getting promotions was one of the issues for the restructure was going to help with.

now you are suggesting a team would not do it even to keep a team up say team X was near the bottom of the nemla one and they want to stay up their first is mid table say in 3rd place but out of the running for promotion what then? a couple of tactical switches the young lad getting a run out on the first ect ect

ok maybe the whole team is an exaggeration but 3-4 players?


and i am sorry but a situation where second teams are playing stronger teams than the first teams is an issue and is wrong

in fact if the right teams get promotion and relegation they could play their stronger teams in nelma 1 creating an even and competitive league they then play a second team in the Prem 2 who will have a few good games and get beaten by the 2 teams that keep switching places promotion and relegation battle each week.


that way we would have 2 good leagues to play in instead of one
League restructure I told you so 10/3/2011(looking good on this one)
Prem division to two leagues will result in the prem division failing and being combined with Nemla 22/3/2012
the proposed restructure to 8 teams in each prem league will only last a couple of years until it has to be restructured again due to teams dropping out. 13/12/2012
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Re: Possible league restructure proposals

Postby young_trig Thu Dec 13, 2012 1:04 pm

the pom wrote:sorry trig you cannot have it both ways

multi team clubs were supposedly loading lower teams stopping weaker teams progressing and getting promotions was one of the issues for the restructure was going to help with.

now you are suggesting a team would not do it even to keep a team up say team X was near the bottom of the nemla one and they want to stay up their first is mid table say in 3rd place but out of the running for promotion what then? a couple of tactical switches the young lad getting a run out on the first ect ect

ok maybe the whole team is an exaggeration but 3-4 players?


I'm not rrying to have it both ways. In the old structure one of the (many) problems was that clubs loaded lower teams to influence results, often impacting on clubs 1st teams in the lower leagues (who couldn't mess around with teams selection).

I beleieve in the new structure that clubs are less likely to try and load their lower teams. The only time I have ever seen complaints about clubs loading their lower teams is when their higher teams have been without a fixture. I have not seen (or heard any complaints) of clubs playing weaker players on the 1st team to relegate stronger players to the lower teams.

the pom wrote:and i am sorry but a situation where second teams are playing stronger teams than the first teams is an issue and is wrong


This happened regularly in the old structure too. Due to the nature of player movement bewteen squads and emeging talent from junior squads, etc, it was possible that the situation you say above could be happening. It was probably fair to say at times that Stockport A and Cheadle A could probably have beaten some of the teams from the lower end of the old Prem 1. It happened then and it was accepted. Why should now be any different.

Its quite common for sports reserve leagues to have teams that are probably better than a lot of teams in the 1st team leagues.

If you carried your argument through then we would end up with the Saint League Structure of Old (may they rest in peace) again, which has been covered time and time again. It didn't work, and it didn't encourage new development of clubs like we have seen in the South.
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Re: Possible league restructure proposals

Postby UKLacrosse Thu Dec 13, 2012 1:21 pm

young_trig wrote:
I believe in the new structure that clubs are less likely to try and load their lower teams. The only time I have ever seen complaints about clubs loading their lower teams is when their higher teams have been without a fixture. I have not seen (or heard any complaints) of clubs playing weaker players on the 1st team to relegate stronger players to the lower teams.

This happened regularly in the old structure too. Due to the nature of player movement between squads and emerging talent from junior squads, etc, it was possible that the situation you say above could be happening. It was probably fair to say at times that Stockport A and Cheadle A could probably have beaten some of the teams from the lower end of the old Prem 1. It happened then and it was accepted. Why should now be any different.

It didn't work, and it didn't encourage new development of clubs like we have seen in the South.


It has happened this season ... but clubs haven't complained ... I know of an instant where exactly that situation occurred ... to ensure that an A-Team stayed up!

The fact is that the new system has hardly helped Mersey Guild, or Oldham .... and it's hurting Stops, Ashton and Nottingham. All at the expense of 'new' clubs ... I would ask again .... how many players have seen the benefit of the new structure over 2 seasons, compared to the number who suffered? No ... we won't go back to the old system (because no one will admit they were wrong), but the fact that 2 seasons on, and there's talk of changing it again says more than anything. I've heard as many negative comments about the 'new' proposals, as I've heard positives. Probably heavily weighted against the new ideas. Comparisons with the South should be looked at carefully. SEMLA was coming from a different point in development, and the so-called 'new' teams were uni teams without any alternatives (BUCS). If NEMLA is looking at trying to replicate that development, then it's a totally different scenario ... BUCS exists for uni teams. NEMLA should be looking to see totally new clubs, independent of university players, and that is very, very limited ... only Leeds, Hull, Liverpool, Newcastle and Lincoln have made that jump ... while York and Chester have pulled out.
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Re: Possible league restructure proposals

Postby young_trig Thu Dec 13, 2012 1:45 pm

UKLacrosse wrote:It has happened this season ... but clubs haven't complained ... I know of an instant where exactly that situation occurred ... to ensure that an A-Team stayed up!

The fact is that the new system has hardly helped Mersey Guild, or Oldham .... and it's hurting Stops, Ashton and Nottingham. All at the expense of 'new' clubs ... I would ask again .... how many players have seen the benefit of the new structure over 2 seasons, compared to the number who suffered? No ... we won't go back to the old system (because no one will admit they were wrong), but the fact that 2 seasons on, and there's talk of changing it again says more than anything. I've heard as many negative comments about the 'new' proposals, as I've heard positives. Probably heavily weighted against the new ideas. Comparisons with the South should be looked at carefully. SEMLA was coming from a different point in development, and the so-called 'new' teams were uni teams without any alternatives (BUCS). If NEMLA is looking at trying to replicate that development, then it's a totally different scenario ... BUCS exists for uni teams. NEMLA should be looking to see totally new clubs, independent of university players, and that is very, very limited ... only Leeds, Hull, Liverpool, Newcastle and Lincoln have made that jump ... while York and Chester have pulled out.


In your example above. the A team played a loaded team whilst playing weaker players on their 1st team? I'm surprsied that team already feel themsleves to be at that stage this season.

Do you believe that under the Saint League Structure of Old (may they rest in peace) the old sclubs you are talking about (Mersey Guild, Oldham, Stops, Ashton, Nottingham) would all be flourishing under the old structure? They are all clubs who have their own individual reasons for struggling and I struggle to believe that the current structure can be held accountable. They are generally clubs struggling for numbers with not enough new players coming in.

Ashton are having a tough season with results but thats because they got promoted and lost lots of players at the same time. Nottingham have been affected by BUCS more than anything and haven't had much of a recruitment from the manchester area in quite a while. Stops I'm sad to say are going to die as a club if something doesn't change soon. It was going to happen in the old structure too, the second that Stockport Grammer pulled the plug on lacrosse. Its a shame as they are generally nice bunch of guys who love the sport, but they are a dying species. At the same time they are affected (just as Mersey Guild are) at being based in a saturated area. Juniors will go to better clubs down the road because there is a flourishing junior programme already there.

I think its important to say that the proposal is not a big restructure. Its holding on to the same principals of the reasons which brought about the last change (i.e. 1st team comp and a reserve comp). The major change that is happening is the moving of the divisional boundaries to attempt to increase the competitveness across the board of the premier divisions. The fact we wont go back to the Saint League Structure of Old (may they rest in peace) is becasue IT DIDNT WORK. The changes being proposed are adoptations (after listening to the clubs requests for more competitve games) of the current structure. Nobody said that everything would work first time!
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Re: Possible league restructure proposals

Postby the pom Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:24 pm

I think its important to say that the proposal is not a big restructure. Its holding on to the same principals of the reasons which brought about the last change (i.e. 1st team comp and a reserve comp). The major change that is happening is the moving of the divisional boundaries to attempt to increase the competitveness across the board of the premier divisions. (may they rest in peace) is becasue The changes being proposed are adoptations (after listening to the clubs requests for more competitve games) of the current structure. Nobody said that everything would work first time!

just a few comments

"The fact we won’t go back to the Saint League Structure of Old" who are you to say this I know it does not suit your agenda but it may suit the majority.
Also calling it stupid names does not help

"IT DIDNT WORK." neither does the current structure or the proposed change the proposed change suits prem two(mainly) and 3 but ignores the Nemla sides and prem 1

I have said I have no issues with the move to 8,8,8 for the prem divisions I just don’t think it will help it will make the current structure last two more years at best

I do not think we have to go back to the old structure just one that is better than this I think like UK lacrosse said I think we missed the boat on getting the uni teams to start clubs as the Bucs league is now flourishing and this provides lacrosse and the unis provide help with transport ect.

Why would they bother playing Club lacrosse unless it was a decent standard and you get good games week in week out


I don’t know if there are any HMG players on this forum but what do they think does the current structure help or hinder you

Are any teams out there who think we need to look at the structure

Do you play in nemla do you think you get less competitive games than before are people unhappy with the current structure
League restructure I told you so 10/3/2011(looking good on this one)
Prem division to two leagues will result in the prem division failing and being combined with Nemla 22/3/2012
the proposed restructure to 8 teams in each prem league will only last a couple of years until it has to be restructured again due to teams dropping out. 13/12/2012
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Re: Possible league restructure proposals

Postby young_trig Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:54 pm

the pom wrote:"The fact we won’t go back to the Saint League Structure of Old" who are you to say this I know it does not suit your agenda but it may suit the majority.
Also calling it stupid names does not help

Fair point. It is not for me to say. I was speaking from the point of view expressed at the NEMLA Forum meeting by the clubs. Its fair to say that I can't catagroically rule out that the Saint League Structure of Old (may they rest in peace) won't come back in, but I would think its very low down on the agenda.

the pom wrote:"IT DIDNT WORK." neither does the current structure or the proposed change the proposed change suits prem two(mainly) and 3 but ignores the Nemla sides and prem 1

The proposal was made at the request of the clubs from the NEMLA Foum meeting to address the competitiveness in the Premier divsisions. As I have said previously, there were no major concerns expressed about the North Divisions. I'm not saying that you are incorrect, I'm saying that these views have not been made clear down the right avenues. How do you feel that the proposal has ignored Prem 1? Other than your issue with the proposal of the changes to the nior Flags format, it has not decreasd the number of competitve games being played. Do you think otherwise?

The main ethos of the last restructure was to create a league structure for 1st teams only, and encouraging club development. When the restructure took place there were 51 teams (if my memory serves me correctly). We currently have 53. I find it unconstructive of you to sit there saying that we should all have egg on our face that the last restructure failed when it shouldn't be like that at all. Are you saying that you would prefer the committee to make a change and then refuse to look at improvements forever more? That would just be plain stupid. Even the Saint League Structure of Old (may they rest in peace) had adjustments made year on year to try and adapt to the current constraints.

the pom wrote:I have said I have no issues with the move to 8,8,8 for the prem divisions I just don’t think it will help it will make the current structure last two more years at best

I do not think we have to go back to the old structure just one that is better than this I think like UK lacrosse said I think we missed the boat on getting the uni teams to start clubs as the Bucs league is now flourishing and this provides lacrosse and the unis provide help with transport ect.


The current structure makes it much easier for the Uni teams to join. The fact is that the Uni teams are chosing not to enter becasue they already have enough lacrosse to keep them happy playing and training in BUCS. When it comes to things like NEMLA the uni AUs are not prepared to help out with costs of pitches and transport and therefore joining becomes a lot less attractive. The only real way for it to properly work is for city clubs to establish themselves and become and attractive option for the uni students to play in.
In the Saint League Structure of Old (may they rest in peace), it was very difficult for Uni teams to join and get games as previously mentioned the lower teams from other clubs were not fulfilling fixtures at their ground.

the pom wrote:I don’t know if there are any HMG players on this forum but what do they think does the current structure help or hinder you


That would be a very leading question. I'd be more interested to know what structure, if any, would have helped them. To blame all their problems on the current structure would be unfair. Equally, we can't shape our entire league structure around one club.

the pom wrote:Are any teams out there who think we need to look at the structure

Do you play in nemla do you think you get less competitive games than before are people unhappy with the current structure


Interesting questions that you pose there. Perhaps you should attend the Forum meeting (or pass your views to your club rep) to join in the debate. We've only been suggesting it to you for the last 3 years since you started whinging about it all.
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Re: Possible league restructure proposals

Postby UKLacrosse Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:08 pm

Trig ... no the A-Team was not loaded at the expense of the 1st Team. In my example it was a 'play-off'' situation pre-season which I guess is a 'grey area' not covered by the rules. However, there have been some unusual results already this season where 1st Teams haven't played, and A-Teams have done remarkably well. So that problem hasn't gone away.

In terms of the 'struggling' clubs, I doubt that they would be flourishing within the old structure, but we'll never know. I doubt that the new structure has helped them. Since they were all struggling before the restructure, did anyone consider their plight before the restructure?

My biggest concern is that ..... despite identifying that 'development' appeared to be centred around university growth, the restructure went ahead regardless of waiting to see how the BUCS development would affect the potential growth of truly 'new' clubs. Nottingham felt the full effect of BUCS with many players less interested in playing 'away' matches after playing mid-week. York was another example, and Chester failed to get off the ground due to over-dependence on uni players. SEMLA have see the effects of BUCS with games cancelled conceded or 'double points' games due to the availability/ commitment/ travelling etc etc. Citing the example of uni's not prepared to offer pitch availability, finance etc to their teams playing NEMLA, was all very predictable.
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Re: Possible league restructure proposals

Postby young_trig Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:32 pm

UKLacrosse wrote:Trig ... no the A-Team was not loaded at the expense of the 1st Team. In my example it was a 'play-off'' situation pre-season which I guess is a 'grey area' not covered by the rules. However, there have been some unusual results already this season where 1st Teams haven't played, and A-Teams have done remarkably well. So that problem hasn't gone away.


We have both agreed on this point before. And as we have previously stated, clubs will still end the rules and insist that their team selections were genuine. We all know what has really gone on, but not a lot can be done about it. All that can be said is that the "loaded teams problem" has moved away from 1st teams and now ists with the lower teams. In an ideal world there would be no team fixing but the only way I feel this will ever be resolved is electronic registers of squads, or clubs not abusing the system.

UKLacrosse wrote:In terms of the 'struggling' clubs, I doubt that they would be flourishing within the old structure, but we'll never know. I doubt that the new structure has helped them. Since they were all struggling before the restructure, did anyone consider their plight before the restructure?


As far as I can remember, and appologies if I'm incorrect, but Oldham were in favour of change. I'm gutted to see what has happened to them and wish them all the luck in the world starting their team up again. Not dead, just sleeping.

I can't remember the last time that HMG attended a forum meeting. However, they were helped more than any other club at the time. Whilst every other 1st team was made to play in the new structure, HMG were given a season in the North structure to give them time to get ready for life in Prem 3.

Nottingham are not a "struggling club" as such, they are just changing. They have a very committed committee who are doing gret work to grow city links again and encourage youth lacrosse. They just had to adapt as nobody was migrating from Manchester anymore.
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Re: Possible league restructure proposals

Postby Moaning Git Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:53 pm

Pom you can argue as much as you want on here, but this is not where decisions are made or the opinions of clubs officially expressed. That is done at Players Forum meetings and by correspondence via NEMLA. Based on that your expressed views are very much in the minority.

Trig is largely correct in what he explains as the views expressed via official channels. he is also correct that the problems of clubs like Stops and HMG have very little to do with the league structure, but an awful lot to do with their club organisation and operations and locations.
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Re: Possible league restructure proposals

Postby the pom Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:59 pm

Trig I would love to get involved and come to the meetings(the Apathy in my own club drives me mad)

it just with work and family commitments I am even having to think about justifying playing next season. a situation which is not helped by most the games being pointless walk overs.

I think most members of most clubs are in the dark about this proposed restructure as with the last.(and the clubs themselves are a fault for not circulating this information)

most these changes I suspect get pushed through due to lack of opposition rather than support.

I believe everything has been done with the best of intensions but sometimes the targets set get different outcomes eg the new structure was expected to force younger up and coming players from bigger clubs to small clubs to get first team spots it has actually seen player leaving clubs relegated to prem to go to bigger clubs to play prem1 lacrosse as prem 2 is a poor standard yes you will argue they would have left anyway but speaking to a couple this was an contributing issue.

we are stuck with the current structure for now but we could create a good cup comp
leave the prem 1 and flags as the 10 top teams.
leave prem 2 and prem 3 with the current number of teams.

pool the teams in nelma and prem 2 and 3 to create a cup comps that create more matches where teams are matched in talent it is hard for teams to load cup sides so this should not be an issue

whilst i am aware that this is not the place where changes can be made i can express my opions as trig expresses his and you yours at leat if i express my opion on here it is heard by people who attend the meetings also other might come out of the wood work and agree with me.
League restructure I told you so 10/3/2011(looking good on this one)
Prem division to two leagues will result in the prem division failing and being combined with Nemla 22/3/2012
the proposed restructure to 8 teams in each prem league will only last a couple of years until it has to be restructured again due to teams dropping out. 13/12/2012
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Re: Possible league restructure proposals

Postby UKLacrosse Thu Dec 13, 2012 5:55 pm

young_trig wrote:Nottingham are not a "struggling club" as such, they are just changing. They have a very committed committee who are doing gret work to grow city links again and encourage youth lacrosse. They just had to adapt as nobody was migrating from Manchester anymore.


My understanding on Nottingham's difficulties were far more linked to their over-dependence on uni players. Now Nottingham Trent, Nottingham Uni and Loughborough are flourishing like never before, so there ought to be far more players available than ever. However, if these guys are getting sufficient lacrosse through BUCS, then it's understandable that they wouldn't pay more to play NEMLA, as well as the travelling. Matt mentioned before that it wasn't so big an issue when Manchester players were at uni, many would be happy to travel back 'home' to play Saturday games.
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