Body check on goalkeeper

[young_trig]

Can somebody please help me clear up a situation.

Goalkeeper is stood with one foot outside the crease, and one foot in, and does not have the ball.

A player rolls the balls towards the goalkeeper, who attempts to reach for the ball, still not in posession.
Before he can get the ball, an attacker does a body-check (take-out) on him.

The attacker never enters the crease to hit the goalkeeper, but the goalkeeper always had one foot in the crease.

Is this legal?

[kael101]

48.1
(ii) ii) No opposing player may initiate contact with the goalkeeper or his crosse while the goalkeeper is within the goal crease area whether the goalkeeper has the ball in his possession or not.
An attacking player may reach into the goal crease area to play a loose ball, so long as he does not initiate contact with the goalkeeper.

As his foot was in the crease regardless that he didnt have the ball its illegal foul by the attacking player.

[laxambition]

48.1
(ii) ii) No opposing player may initiate contact with the goalkeeper or his crosse while the goalkeeper is within the goal crease area whether the goalkeeper has the ball in his possession or not.
An attacking player may reach into the goal crease area to play a loose ball, so long as he does not initiate contact with the goalkeeper.

As his foot was in the crease regardless that he didnt have the ball its illegal foul by the attacking player.

Correct; illegal body-check

Unless the keeper lifted his foot off the crease and replaced it in which case its illegal procedure by keeper

incorrect; in the situation described by young_trig, the goalkeeper never has possession, so it's not illegal for the keeper to leave the crease and then re-enter

[Tommy_Tank]

Can I check what counts as possession and what counts as contact?

Possession:

obviously in his stick is possession but what If keeper had the ball clamped? Can anyone swipe underneath his stick to retrieve the ball?

Contact:

Often find myself in the awkward position of having clamped the ball in my own crease, someone hovering over my shoulder while I attempt to move the ball from clamped position into the stick (Made especially awkward with some of the creases we have in the UK that would be better suited to mud wrestling). In this situation i am regularly tapped or interfered with in an attempt to hinder or cause turnover, what is contact? Someone could simply tap me on the arm and cause a goal!

Either of these would be very hard for a ref to call if it occurred because of the number of people around directly after a shot.

Thoughts?

[laxambition]

Can I check what counts as possession and what counts as contact?

Possession:

obviously in his stick is possession but what If keeper had the ball clamped?

clamped in the crease is possession; outside is not

Can anyone swipe underneath his stick to retrieve the ball?

outside the crease, no foul; inside the crease = interference

Contact:

Often find myself in the awkward position of having clamped the ball in my own crease, someone hovering over my shoulder while I attempt to move the ball from clamped position into the stick (Made especially awkward with some of the creases we have in the UK that would be better suited to mud wrestling). In this situation i am regularly tapped or interfered with in an attempt to hinder or cause turnover, what is contact? Someone could simply tap me on the arm and cause a goal!

Goalie clamps; 4 second count begins

As long as the move from clamping to getting the ball into the stick is a single fluid motion then the count continues and the goalie is considered still in possession. Any contact is therefore interference

If you release the clamp and/or do not scoop the ball up successfully, hence possession is lost, then so long as contact is only with the ball (not you or the stick) then a goal scored in this manner is legal

again any contact with the goalie or the crosse is therefore interference

Either of these would be very hard for a ref to call if it occurred because of the number of people around directly after a shot.

That's why we (refs) get paid the big bucks;

and why 2 or 3 refs are preferable to one

[jivingjohn]

Can I check what counts as possession and what counts as contact?

Possession:

obviously in his stick is possession but what If keeper had the ball clamped?

clamped in the crease is possession; outside is not

Can anyone swipe underneath his stick to retrieve the ball?

outside the crease, no foul; inside the crease = interference

This "swiping" when the goalie has clamped the ball.

Are you saying I can scoop as though I'm playing a ground ball, i.e. push the head of my stick under the goalie stick that is clamped, making contact with the goalie stick and pushing it out of the way as I scoop?

Or are you saying I can slide my stick under the goalie stick only if he lifts it up off the ground sufficiently that I can grab the ground ball without touching the goalie stick in any way?

In both instances there would be no contact between the player and the goalie, but the sticks would contact with each other in the first scenario.

[young_trig]

Can I check what counts as possession and what counts as contact?

Possession:

obviously in his stick is possession but what If keeper had the ball clamped?

clamped in the crease is possession; outside is not

Can anyone swipe underneath his stick to retrieve the ball?

outside the crease, no foul; inside the crease = interference

Contact:

Often find myself in the awkward position of having clamped the ball in my own crease, someone hovering over my shoulder while I attempt to move the ball from clamped position into the stick (Made especially awkward with some of the creases we have in the UK that would be better suited to mud wrestling). In this situation i am regularly tapped or interfered with in an attempt to hinder or cause turnover, what is contact? Someone could simply tap me on the arm and cause a goal!

Goalie clamps; 4 second count begins

As long as the move from clamping to getting the ball into the stick is a single fluid motion then the count continues and the goalie is considered still in possession. Any contact is therefore interference

If you release the clamp and/or do not scoop the ball up successfully, hence possession is lost, then so long as contact is only with the ball (not you or the stick) then a goal scored in this manner is legal

again any contact with the goalie or the crosse is therefore interference

Either of these would be very hard for a ref to call if it occurred because of the number of people around directly after a shot.

That's why we (refs) get paid the big bucks;

and why 2 or 3 refs are preferable to one

Must admit I'm still confused.
From what you say, if the goalkeeper is within his crease but has the ball clamped (outside the crease), it is fair game for the the opposong player to challenge for the ball and make contact with the goalkeepers crosse.

But this seems to contradict rule 48.1 quoted above!

[UKLacrosse]

Trig, it confuses players, spectators and referees alike!

Many players incorrectly believe that a goalie in the crease, clamping the ball outside the crease, is protected from interference. In fact his stick is fair game in that scenario, and he must also be drawing the ball back to the crease, or he's withholding the ball. Once the ball touches the crease, under the stick, then he's protected from interference.

My understanding is, that as soon as that happens he's effectively clamping within the crease and the count starts as if he has possession.

Now the tricky part starts ...... if he then releases the ball to get it in his stick proper then is he still protected from interference? Can someone steal the ball off him provided they do not touch the goalie or his stick? If so, why does the count continue as if he's still in possession, or does the count stop once he's no longer clamping, and restart when he has the ball in the stick?

This was questioned a couple of seasons ago following a game between Mellor and Steelers, and no clear response was ascertained. Can a defender carry out a legitimate take-out of the attacker who's attempting to get the ball, even though the count continues?

[Tommy_Tank]

i only raise it because some interesting calls were made in a recent game that changed my understanding.

One of the more interesting conclusions i drew from what had been explained by the ref was that i could effectively stand to the side of my goal at GLE stretching out of my crease but with my foot inside it, and the X man would have to run around me without contacting me or he would be interfering.

[laxambition]

Must admit I'm still confused.
From what you say, if the goalkeeper is within his crease but has the ball clamped (outside the crease), it is fair game for the the opposong player to challenge for the ball and make contact with the goalkeepers crosse.

But this seems to contradict rule 48.1 quoted above!

that's what you get when you only quote part of the rule!

UKLacrosse has it correct.

the full rule states:

Privileges of the Designated Goalkeeper
48.1 While in his own goal crease, the designated goalkeeper shall have the following privileges and protections:
i) He may stop or block the ball in any manner with his crosse or body, and he may block the ball or bat it away with his hand, but he may not catch the ball with his hand: nor may he pick the ball up with his hand.
He or any member of the defending team may receive a pass while in the crease area. ii) No opposing player may initiate contact with the goalkeeper or his crosse while the goalkeeper is within the goal crease area whether the goalkeeper has the ball in his possession or not. An attacking player may reach into the goal crease area to play a loose ball, so long as he does not initiate contact with the goalkeeper.
iii) An exception to Rule 48.1 ii), above, is that the crosse of the goalkeeper, when extended outside the cylinder above the goal crease area, except when the ball is in the crosse, is subject to being checked under the same circumstances as the crosse of any other player.

Tommy_Tank - yes, if he contacts with your physical person it is interference

UKLacrosse - this is why I said the transition from clamping to holding the ball in the crosse has to be one fluid motion. If he "releases" the ball and it is not in a fluid motion to scoop it up, then the count should stop and the ball (and ball only) is fair game

If the ref is still counting, he (or she) still considers the goalie to be in possession

[laxambition]

Can a defender carry out a legitimate take-out of the attacker who's attempting to get the ball, even though the count continues?

if the ref is counting they consider the goalie to be in possession

if the goalie has possession the take-out is not legitimite, the defender is taking out a man when his own team is in possession - take outs can only be within 3 yards of a loose ball or against a player with the ball

At best this is interference, at worst it is an illegal body check (or unnecessary roughness)

[UKLacrosse]

My only concern with the interpretation is that, in the case highlighted a couple of seasons ago, the count started and continued throughout, and as the goalie turned his stick to gather up the ball, an attacker was able to collect the ball and score. Presumably, for that to be legal the count should have stopped, because while the count continues the goalie is deemed to still be in possession? My guess is that unless the goalie clearly fumbles the ball, then the referee will continue with the count.

[dblacklock]

Okay here we go. I'll try to clear up any misconceptions, but for the msot part many of you have got it right.

Any Contact with the goalie in the crease with or with out the ball is illegal.

Any Contact with the goalie's crosse whilst in possession when any part of the goalies body is touching in the crease is illegal.
Possession is deemed to have started when the goalie has the ball in his stick and has the ability to pass, cradle or shoot the ball, OR, when the ball is clamped under the goalies stick and he is within the crease and the ball is touching something inside the crease (crease line included). The count would start and therefore the goalie and or his stick cannot be checked. He has 4 seconds to move the ball out of the crease.

A loose ball outside the crease (or clamped under the goalie stick) the portion of the goalie's stick outside the crease can be legally checked.

A goalie outside his crease (no part of his body touching inside the crease) reaches in and clamps the ball inside of the crease - He is standing outside looking into the crease. Thus any part of his body or stick including that inside the crease can be checked (as he does not have the privileges of the crease) as no part of his body is touching inside the crease to give him the protection of the crease.

A goalie has the ball clamped under his stick and whilst attempting to pick up the ball raises his stick off the ball - the attacker can reach in and play the ball so long as he does not initiate any contact with the goalie. The goalie then contacts the attackers stick – no foul as the attacking player did not make the contact, the goalie initiated the contact.

Ball in the air in the crease, the attacker reaches in to play the ball and makes contact with the goalie and or his stick. – Foul (not time served) - Play on or whistle with the defensive team’s possession 20 yards goal line extended.

I was recently doing a top flight game where the goalie clamped the ball outside the crease. He was checked and immediately he pulled his stick off the ball and turned to protest for what he thought was a foul. The next thing he saw was my arms in the air signalling goal. The reality is that he cost his team that goal purely by not knowing the rule.

Hope this clears things up.

[UKLacrosse]

A goalie has the ball clamped under his stick and whilst attempting to pick up the ball raises his stick off the ball - the attacker can reach in and play the ball so long as he does not initiate any contact with the goalie.

Don, that's a tough call to get right from a distance!
Presumable the count is continuing during this action? If so, is the attacker attempting to reach the ball, immune from any interference from a defender?

[dblacklock]

A goalie has the ball clamped under his stick and whilst attempting to pick up the ball raises his stick off the ball - the attacker can reach in and play the ball so long as he does not initiate any contact with the goalie.

Don, that's a tough call to get right from a distance!
Presumable the count is continuing during this action? If so, is the attacker attempting to reach the ball, immune from any interference from a defender?

That is the point with two referees in the right position it should never be a tough call and never from a distance. Yes the count continues as the goalie is still deemed in possession. The interference is an interesting one as we never seem to enforce the defensive interference when the goalie has the ball clamped in the crease.